Bob Belderbos - Python Challengs, Coaching, Spain
Bob, welcome.
Bob:Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
Brian:So I was trying to jog my memory, May of 2017, PyCon in Portland. There was a birds of a feather meeting. It was like, the testing birds of a feather, and I was nervous because I wanted to talk at it. I was, like, gonna try to get up and talk. And, and I was we were standing outside, and you're standing there, and you came up to me and said, hey.
Brian:Are you Brian and or something? And we just started talking. And I had already covered you or Michael and I had already covered a couple, things about, PyBytes on, Python bytes. And, and it was cool to meet you in person. So, I 2017 was a long time ago, but it wasn't really.
Brian:But now now it feels like I've known you for a long time.
Bob:So 6 years. Yeah. I remember that Python.
Brian:Was it so was that the first, Python you've been Python US you were you've been to, or or have you been to others? Okay.
Bob:Yeah. Yes.
Brian:Oh, me too. The first one. So we have kind of a similar history of Python. So, that was the 2nd Python. So I'm in the area, so, of course, I wanted to go.
Brian:But the 2016, I couldn't get tickets. I I tried too late. So I
Bob:Right. Right. Yeah. It was Portland. Yeah.
Bob:It was a it's a really nice one. 6 years. Yeah. That's where we, started to get into the space.
Brian:And that's kind of when pi byte.esorpybit.es, Pybytes, you and, Julian got started. Right? I mean Yep. You started doing the code challenges. They were GitHub challenges, and, like, I looked back.
Brian:The the read me first commit was January of 2017. So Correct. Yeah. And then and then it just kinda grew. So you did the the GitHub challenges, then you made the I don't know if the order that there's the platform, the code challenges platform, which is cool.
Brian:You have Slack associated with it. You're blogging about it. I guess the blog came with the code challenges. Right? You you and Julian were blogging about it.
Bob:Yeah. We we we started in
Brian:Yeah. What was the order of how you guys did this stuff?
Bob:Yeah. The it was Christmas break 2016. Julian and I, Julian Sacajera, right, the other half of, PyBites, We were looking for some adventure because we were talking about, you know, launching something, doing some coloration, so and some project. And we like happened to like Python. Right?
Bob:And he was a complete beginner. I already had coded in it for a couple of years. So I said, well, let's just start a Python blog. There are millions out there. Right?
Bob:People can definitely use yet another block. Well, we just needed some outlet to share learning and create that community. So we started a blog. Pretty quickly, we found a niche of code challenges, right, of launching these challenges because we thought, well, a lot of what's out there is pretty theoretical. So we want to learn by doing, right, and teach through code challenge.
Bob:So we started to launch these code challenges on the blog every week. On Monday, we would launch a challenge. By Friday, we would solve it and compare solutions. And platform And then we built our platform where we managed to that was actually a platform to automate to get a pull request stuff. But we actually shifted away from that to solve the exercises in the browser and using AWS Lambda in the back end, which I think we spoke about on testing code at some point.
Bob:And then later, like, flash forward to 2020, we started getting into coaching. And that's what we mainly do these
Brian:days. Okay. So there's I was gonna ask about that. But you well, you're also okay. You also wrote a book.
Brian:You have a podcast that where you and Julian are talking about stuff. And you, started a YouTube channel not too awfully long ago. Or has it been about a year? How long you've been doing that, Tina?
Bob:Yeah. On and off. I think it's 2 years or so. Okay. Yeah.
Bob:But more seriously, like, a year ago.
Brian:Okay. And and you remind me again, you had been coding in Python a couple years before you started this. Is that right?
Bob:Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 2012, I I found Python and and didn't look back.
Brian:Okay. Did you know other languages before that?
Bob:Mostly scripting. So I started with PHP and shell scripting and went into Perl, a little bit of Java, but then I I found Python and, yeah, that that's it.
Brian:And this what and what what code what, like, space were you why were you why were you doing scripting and stuff? Were you doing networking? Or
Bob:Oh, I I was a technical support engineer at Sun.
Brian:Okay.
Bob:At Sun Microsystems. And, so well, actually, I have a finance background. But I moved to Spain, and, I went that was the work I could find, right, to become a support engineer, supporting Unix systems, which at the start, I didn't know anything about. But I grew to like it and the whole command line stuff and scripting. And then there was this opportunity to build some automation tools on the job to make, the support engineers' lives easier or happier.
Bob:And that's where I got into scripting.
Brian:And why did, why did Julian get into it? Do you remind me? Do you remember?
Bob:Good question. So he was he was more like a hardware engineer, swapping faulty components on those servers. That's actually also where we met, right, remotely in some microsystems. But, yeah, he has just a general interest in in coding and and solving problems.
Brian:Okay.
Bob:Yeah. But he comes more from a hardware background.
Brian:Now fast forward. So it's been, my math's not that great. Did you say 5 years, 7 years, 6 years? I don't know.
Bob:6 six and a half years. Yeah. Okay. Since we started. Yeah.
Brian:Are you are you still is this still a side project thing, or has Py Bytes turned into a full time job?
Bob:Yeah. For me, it is a full time job now. Okay. And Py Bytes has become a business in a sense that we, we have people working for us, not full time, but we have a team of coaches. So we have 8 coaches right now, some career coaches, also 9 coaches, actually.
Bob:Wow. But Julia and myself, there's actually 11 people. So, yeah, it has grown quite a bit, mainly because of the PDM program.
Brian:Okay. So the PDM, that's the what remind me what that means, PDM.
Bob:Pyrites developer mindset. So a 12 week coaching program.
Brian:Okay. And that's your that's your coaching program, and that started in 2020. What Mhmm. I I do wanna I'm curious about this. So I wanna, like, poke at this a little bit.
Brian:The Sure. What made you start coaching?
Bob:Yeah. That's a great question. So it was the end of 2019. We had been helping hundreds of people at that point right through the Slack community and mainly the platform. There are also some 100 Days of Code courses with Michael that taught Python.
Bob:And we're kind of stuck in a sense as well. We were a bit bored and doing the same thing. I mean, we liked it, but we were just looking for how can we have a bigger impact. Right? And we just noticed, like, if we would work 1 to 1 with people, we would really help them become developers.
Bob:I mean, our platform does a great job at teaching them the Python skills and endorsing that deliberate practice. But there was much more to it, right, to build a project end to end. You need to know the tooling, the testing. There's also mindset involved, actually. So we we start to put together a new offer and decided that coaching would be the way to to help people getting there there faster and and with more guidance.
Bob:And that's how we, went into coaching.
Brian:And is this a custom thing? Like, do you customize for each person? Or is it Yes. Do you have, like, a set amount of stuff you go through? Or okay.
Bob:Yeah. Yes. It's not a boot camp. So, the, people come to us with the applications they wanna build, and that can be a pretty complex, advanced, wild. And we, we help them 1 on 1.
Bob:So that's the fun part. They get to build what they want, and it challenges us to also learn new things and, help them make it happen.
Brian:That's pretty cool. And then, does it vary in range?
Bob:Well, they're common trends. So a lot of people wanna do web development, so they end up with FastAPI or Django. But then the app RDR is still very broad.
Brian:Oh, yeah.
Bob:I mean, can vary.
Brian:But like
Bob:how They're they're common set of tools, right, they they use.
Brian:Is it a fixed time frame or open ended?
Bob:12 weeks.
Brian:12 weeks. Wow.
Bob:Mhmm. Yeah. And they typically do 1 to 3 apps. So it depends a little bit. Like, some people wanna land a developer job, so they might do 3 apps that vary, you know, web data, bit of DevOps.
Bob:So they try to add some variation. But there are other people that want to build their startup. So they do 12 weeks dedicated on their idea that turns out to become a startup. So it's, it's pretty exciting.
Brian:That is pretty exciting. Yeah. I was curious about that because 12 like, if somebody came and said, I have this startup idea, but I don't know how to do it. You can't really do 2 other projects and then focus on that in the last month or so, but maybe. Yeah.
Brian:Cool. That's pretty exciting. How many people have you reached through the PDM, or do you do you know the numbers?
Bob:Around a 120 by now.
Brian:That's really great. That's pretty cool. The one of the things I love, I like one of the things I love about the you guys, both you and Julian, is that you're approaching a lot of this. Like you said, there's tons of blogs out there already, but there's there's like a different you guys have a different spin on it. The, like, you're you're I love the idea for your your podcast where you kinda bounce back and forth between technical stuff and then Julian's mindset things Because
Bob:The Julian thing. Yeah.
Brian:But it's fun. So okay. So there's your you're kind of, are you guys different different definitely different personalities? Or
Bob:Oh, yeah. Okay. So disclaimer, we're also best friends, But we couldn't be more different as well. So it's kind of funny. I'm more like the developer, more into the techie stuff, the Python.
Bob:I love mindset, right, the stoics and and and philosophy. I've I've I've studied philosophy, not, you know, in in a degree, but I've always been reading about it. So I'm definitely on that mind stuff. But, when it comes to PyBites, I'm more like on the tech. He's on the mindset.
Bob:Right? I'm more a bit more introverted. He is more extroverted. So we're we're pretty different, but I think that's also where where the chemistry lies. You know?
Brian:Well, definitely, because I've I've been the I've had to push myself to be more of an extrovert. Naturally, I think I'm just a book bookworm. I'd rather just sit in the library and read a book and not talk to anybody.
Bob:So nice.
Brian:We actually just went to my family and I just went to the library for the first time, in a long time and, like, came back with, like, 60 books or something. We're like, what's the limit? They said a 100. Like, I think we can hit that. We didn't hit a 100.
Brian:Anyway, what? It's easy with, like, art books and cookbooks. It's easy to hit to go up high. So I'm trying to make pizza lately.
Bob:Oh, nice.
Brian:So I we kinda swung by the Spain thing, quickly. Did were you born in Spain, or how did you get to Spain?
Bob:Not at all. Like, at 20 years of age, I I couldn't even say hola or. I wouldn't know anything. I had more like a knack for France. And I was doing these yearly interval trips, so where you buy a month train pass, and you can train your way through Europe unlimited.
Bob:So I was doing that in summers. And yeah.
Brian:Where were you living at the time? The rest of
Bob:the time? So I'm originally Dutch. So I was living in Holland. I was studying in Amsterdam.
Brian:Okay.
Bob:So I had these yearly trips, train trips. And, yeah, if you would have asked me by 2,001, maybe even 2,002 if if I would go to Spain, I'd say, nah, not interested. Until until I I visited the country in 2,003 and kind of fell in love and, started to pick up the language. And I'm like, yeah. I wanna live here.
Bob:You know? So, that's what I did later.
Brian:What about makes you what what is better about Spain than other places you've been?
Bob:Well, there are a lot of good places. Right? But what attracted me to Spain was, I mean, the weather. In Holland, we get pretty shitty weather. The people, they're definitely positive, nice.
Bob:And again, in Holland, there's also a lot of nice people, but just general, right, your impressions when you're traveling. The culture. You know? So those to me are very yeah. That that felt very welcoming to me.
Brian:Okay. I've never been to Spain, but I looked on a map and you're kind of you're you're on the, east side on the East Coast. Is that right?
Bob:Yes. Correct.
Brian:And there's a there's a West Coast also. Is there are there big differences between the 2?
Bob:East and West Coast. Yeah, they're I mean, if you go all the way to the West, you're in Portugal. So that's a bit different. I mean, there's a lot of similarity as well. But, yeah, it's different.
Bob:Yeah. But here, yeah, it's this nice Mediterranean climate and and vibe, good food, beach. So it's that's nice.
Brian:I talked to somebody from Palma once. That's not that far from where you're at. Right? I mean, I I mean, you can't drive there. It's a a but
Bob:It's island. Right?
Brian:Yeah. Yeah.
Bob:Yeah. They're relatively close. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Brian:And, you know, when I look at pictures of, like, where you're at, I'm like, why the question is why are what not? Why do you live there? But it's why why don't I live there? That looks looks pretty awesome. So
Bob:Yeah. I have to say it was not like a direct switch. Right? I I first went to Madrid. There, I lived for 8 and a half years.
Bob:Then I went to Murcia, which is more like a rural site. And then we went to Alicante. So just kind of a a whole progression in a sense.
Brian:Okay.
Bob:We we made it. Yeah.
Brian:When you say we, so you you have a family there then?
Bob:Oh, yeah. My me, my wife, and the 2 kids.
Brian:Did did you meet your wife in Spain or did you were you guys married before you okay.
Bob:In Madrid. Yeah.
Brian:Nice. I was gonna ask you how warm it is there, but I don't I might not understand your answer.
Bob:Yeah. I I might translate it. So it's 30 ish degrees, so that might be 80, 90 Fahrenheit.
Brian:That's Okay.
Bob:But but it's it's, you know, it's at the seaside. Right? So it's a bit fresh air. Madrid gets, like, 40. We're in the south of Spain.
Bob:It's, like, 40, and that's up to a 100 Fahrenheit, so it gets pretty hot.
Brian:Ick. Yeah. Did so do you do do you still do the traveling thing? Even though you love Spain, do you still do the, have you taken your kids up to different parts of parts of Europe?
Bob:Not lately. It's just that mostly we do those trips back to Holland to visit the family. So most of my free time, I just go to Holland a couple of times, visiting the parents and, you know, bring my kids.
Brian:One of the things you bring up on pie on the podcast. Oh, every episode, you guys ask, what what are you reading? Do have you always been a reader? Or
Bob:That's a great question. Actually, I got into reading pretty late. Like, at high school, I really didn't like reading. Like, you had these these books you had to read. Like, now I would love reading them again, like 1984 and Brave in the World and those utopian books.
Bob:And I couldn't be bothered. You know? And, but I don't know. Later in my 20s, I I got more and more into philosophy and reading, and and I really stuck since then. So yeah.
Bob:And that's now a big, yeah, big fan of reading of reading books. Yeah. So
Brian:So what are you reading now?
Bob:Well, Chris May got me on the, we're not doing camera maybe, but Building a Second Brain,
Brian:a
Bob:Tiago Forte. So, about note taking and getting all that stuff out of your head and more systematized information. But I'm also into fiction. So I'm reading Anna Karenina. That's a really long one for the Russians.
Brian:You don't mess around.
Bob:Yeah. So, yeah, I read all kind of things, both fiction and and nonfiction. Yeah.
Brian:And and reading multiple books at once.
Bob:Yes. Yes. That's that's inevitable, but I it's probably better to stick with 1. Yeah.
Brian:I don't know if it's better. I mean, I I think I usually have several books I'm reading at once, and but that's like what you do in school. Right? I mean, at a history book, I was reading in a math book and, you know, whatever. You read a chapter at a time.
Brian:And and also, watching TV series. I'm I'm following a handful of TV series. I don't just I mean, sometimes I read just I watch just one at a time. Totally binged Grim all at once, like, 6 seasons at once or 3 seasons or something like that. But, anyway Yeah.
Brian:And, okay, so you've got a big bookshelf behind you. Yeah. I'm apologize for not doing video because, you know, you got, like, the perfect video setup right there, but, you got, like, plants to to make sure that you're not a robot and the books to make it look smart and then some artwork on the side, which is good. It's good.
Bob:It's a nice balance. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Thanks to the wife as well, right, for the putting those plants in there.
Bob:And
Brian:Is she got the green thumb in the family
Bob:The green thumb? And, yeah. What's that? Like the nature stuff?
Brian:Yeah. Okay. Is that is that not a not a term in Europe or something? Yeah. A great thing.
Bob:No. Explain it.
Brian:Some some days it's good at, good with plants.
Bob:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really a passion of hers. Yeah.
Brian:So I say that I read a lot, but, honestly, I'm probably physically reading. What am I physically reading? Got a c plus plus book I'm reading and, a meditation book. Actually, I thought it was about communicating, but it's really about, what's a book? So it's, it's about, basically, communicate with yourself so that you communicate with other people better, things like that.
Brian:That's a pretty good book. But, I have been doing a lot of gardening, with the heat, trying to makes make sure that the garden doesn't die. I'm out watering probably an hour and a half a day, which sounds like terrible work, but I love it. And I'm usually listening to a book on tape, while I'm out there. So,
Bob:Oh, but, Audible.
Brian:Yeah. Well okay. So I spent a lot on Audible, and then my daughter, my older daughter said, just, like, you should check out the library offering. So the, with our public library, there's an app that we can do that we can check out audiobooks from the library just on your phone. And so I'm I'm listening to more.
Brian:And then, Brett Cannon, started well, this I was desperate because Brett Cannon started me on the Murderbot Diaries.
Bob:They're dead. Yeah.
Brian:And they're pretty good except for they're short. So I, like, bought the first one, and, you know, an hour and a half later or something like that, it's gone. And I'm like, what? Because it's they're like novellas. They're only they're under 200 pages each, so the audiobook's pretty fast.
Brian:So, and I looked into the series. There's, like, 7. I'm like, if I if I buy them $10 each, it's $70. I don't know if I wanna spend $70 on this, but so I've got I've got I'm waiting to get my my turn to listen to them through the library.
Bob:Nice. But Yeah. It's it's every time through podcast, the the reading is gross. Right?
Brian:Yeah. But I I I kinda bounce back and forth. Sometimes I like listening to podcasts, and sometimes I listen to to books. And then sometimes I, and even podcasts. Sometimes it's business ones and and, sometimes it's, it's tech stuff and everything.
Brian:But, so you're what's coming next? So the the you're kinda doing the coaching and you're keeping up on are you keeping up on everything else? Is the is the code challenges platform still growing?
Bob:Yeah. Slowly what it is. Yeah. We we do a lot. So the main thing is the coaching.
Bob:We do the podcast. We do the YouTube. We do the weekly emails. We want to do some more articles as well. It's been posting to LinkedIn quite long posts, so I was thinking maybe I should put those on the blog.
Bob:There's product
Brian:You're writing on LinkedIn also?
Bob:Yeah. I write quite a bit on LinkedIn. Yeah. It's longer software related posts. Yeah.
Brian:Okay.
Bob:And so what's next? Yeah, we just actually launched PDI, so Pyrites developer init. And that's for the complete beginner or novice. And that's a 6 week program where we get you from complete beginner to intermediate developer by so it's very similar to PDM. But instead of clients coming to us with, their projects, we guide them through all the basics with Python and Git and GitHub and do 1 or more capstone project.
Bob:So it's a bit more structured. So that's now running for a month. And, yeah, we also want to work on the other end. So after PDM, to go into specializations. So people can do a 6 week front end track or 6 week SaaS business track or a 6 week machine learning track because you just got 2 coaches as well that specialize in front end and machine learning.
Bob:So, exciting times.
Brian:Very exciting. Be be like, between you and real Python, you'd be like controlling the world.
Bob:Yeah. We we yeah. It's it's it's funny. Right? They we have different approaches.
Bob:And, yeah. And but it both helps developers. You know?
Brian:Yeah. And but one of the things I'm noticing is this is kind of a lot of talking with people and community building for an introvert. Is this challenging to you?
Bob:Well, when you say introvert, like talking with I like talking with people. That's for sure. Maybe you can resonate with that, right? As an introvert I don't know. Maybe I'm asking you the question.
Bob:Like, talking 1 on 1 with somebody is not really that difficult per se. But maybe in a group setting, you would struggle a bit more. But I think the introvert thing is also more like, how do you want to spend time? And I'm definitely like I also like to read a book and do things by myself. But, yeah, I definitely don't have problem connecting.
Bob:And, I think in our Pyrites world, that's that's pretty important as well, right, with the coaching and and the community. It's it's a lot about, interacting with people, and and we do enjoy that a lot.
Brian:I remember, like, maybe probably 15 years ago, I was talking with 1 of the, marketing, marketing great marketing people in our company at the company I was at at the time. And I said pretty much that I don't think I could do their job because I'm such a I would like I don't know. The sales part of it seems I mean, I had I I get at the time, I had an an I didn't have a good understanding for what marketing was, and, I thought it was people trying to tell trying to convince you to buy something even if you didn't need it. And, and I didn't say that. I just was that's my was my mindset of, like, people just wanna sell stuff and sell as much as they can.
Brian:But the, when I was talking with them, they said, I actually think that you would be a decent person at this job because, well, mostly, what we do is try to listen, try to understand what problems the other person has, and see if there's any offerings that we have that might help and to help them to use it. And, like, well, that doesn't sound too bad. But, and, that and many other conversations with people that I assumed, too much about, got me to, I guess, just start practice practicing listening. And and as an introvert, listening is easy. I I like it's not talking.
Brian:I so that's good. But, yeah.
Bob:Yeah. That's a great point. I really enjoy listening, right, when people get on the calls with us and we talk about, you know, where they struggle and their goals. And, yeah, sometimes you're just listening for 20, 30 minutes and not saying anything, and I love it. That that's great.
Bob:Right? It's, you have to listen to really be able to help people properly.
Brian:So of all the things you guys are working on for you, what's the most fun part?
Bob:Wow. I'm a bit torn. Like, I I still like the days where I have a couple of hours to code. Right? Okay.
Bob:I don't think that goes away, but it has become less. Right? Because now, I'm kinda split between the content creation, the coaching of people, you know, marketing sales, having calls of people that are interested. And we have people now working in our team. Right?
Bob:So you also have some managing responsibility in the sense of leading your team. Yeah. So I'm kind of having 4 hats. And I actually like all these tests. So what's my favorite?
Bob:Yeah, that's a good question. I almost enjoy all of that because they have all you use different skills for all these things. Right? And I mean, the coding, the passion for coding does not go away. Right?
Bob:Again, having these gaps to code is awesome. But then if you coach somebody and you see those moments when they get unstuck and they they launch something to PyPI, which they thought they were not capable of, that's tremendously satisfying as well. Right? Or working with a team and see that your fellow coaches come up with brilliant ideas you didn't have. And you're like, that's so awesome.
Bob:We have a team now. Right? So it's, that's all fun to me, to be honest.
Brian:One of the things that I think is cool about what you're doing is, is the coaching part partly because it's also you do have to grow the team to grow because you can't you and both you and Julian, by the just the 2 of you can't coach everybody that you want to. Right. So letting, some of these coaches be able to help people without having to go out and build their own platform or audience by themselves. And then also, to get some extra money on the side. So that's nice.
Brian:Mhmm.
Bob:So Yep.
Brian:It's pretty cool that what you're doing. So thank you. Any Thank you. And I guess you're you're having enough fun with it that you're probably not looking for, to jump out anytime soon. This this would be a hard company to sell, I think.
Brian:To to remove remove Bob and Julian from the company, there's not much there. I mean, there's other people. But yeah.
Bob:I would say so a couple of years ago. But these days, with the people that work for us, it's
Brian:yeah.
Bob:We were still obviously, we have, there's Bob and Julian. But they're yeah. There there's more a team now. So I'm really happy that there's more redundancy. And,
Brian:yeah, I'm Maybe you're gonna IPO soon. And,
Bob:I'm I'm staying right here right now. We're having a lot of fun with it and satisfaction. And, yeah, as you said, right, it's not really about the clients getting them results. It's also our team, right, giving them an opportunity to grow as coaches. And, yeah, both things have just are just amazing.
Bob:So,
Brian:any idea if you guys are gonna try to hit US PyCon next year?
Bob:Hope so. Last year, it didn't happen. It's just a huge undertaking and trip, but definitely open to it because it's it's about time to get all together. Right?
Brian:Yeah. I'd love to see it, but, of course, on on my end, I'd I'd like to go to to Europicon as well sometime. So, usually hit go there. Right? Or do you?
Bob:Oh, no. Not I, also not. I do have a ticket for, in Spain. Okay. That's in October, but I would still have to make arrangements on all that.
Bob:But, yeah, not not have been to conferences lately since the pandemic.
Brian:Yeah. And this
Bob:is that's it.
Brian:It's also not a slam dunk with family and everything to have to make
Bob:Yeah. It's a bit tough
Brian:for now. That. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Brian:Well, thanks so much for talking with me, Bob, and, keep up the good work. We we love we love you and Julian. So
Bob:thanks. Yeah. We guys do what you do, and, thanks for having me on the show today.
Brian:Alright. Thanks.
Bob:Thanks.
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